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concert tonight MN Orchestra and some NMB
By: Philip Fried Date: Nov 7, 2008 - 09:34 AM
http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5760
One of my main concepts
a thought
By philmusic
Frank, being human, like and dislike precede all.
Folks just create a tautology to explain themselves. If smart these explanations can be interesting, providing insight, or it can just be a mystification or a simple knee jerk reaction.
Listening to others is the hardest skill to learn.
So is knowing when not to listen because those who know how to game the system (to gain an advantage) also know that anger will trump common sense.
Phil Fried
http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5753
political music? The problem is people react to the message (title) not the music. Hence William's support for a work he has not heard
a question...
By philmusic
What I would ask is;
Is this a question of an evocative/commemorative title for an instrumental work, or is this a tone poem with a scenario embedded into the music?
Since I have composed political music myself I have found that songs, theatrical works, and tone poems tend to have less ambiguity of understanding.
Then again, after all, the music comes first.
Phil Fried
Monday, November 03, 2008, 2:30:43 PM
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http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5762
It seems a no brainer that composing for 90 people might require a different approach then working with a few new musics specialists. No one points out that many new music performers can't play mainstream-and the best new music performances come from non specialist performers.
I agree that notation is not written in stone and has many new paths to explore--but to me that's a separate issue.
music convention VS conventional music
By philmusic
At this time I am aware of several different ways of notating- lets call them advanced techniques- for instruments. Some are idiosyncratic so that the composers who use them prefer to stick with the same performers who know their style over and over again. Quite a few of these actually. Also many college new music ensembles offer a a composer not only a lot of practice time but also a lot of supervision.
How would this translate into a big band situation like the MN Orchestra?
Given enough time and rehearsal the Minnesota Orchestra, or any major professional orchestra for that matter can pretty much can learn anything. Time--that is the fact. Every moment spent haggling over notation method means less rehearsal/practice time.
Observing the conventions of writing for orchestra is not the same as composing conventional music.
Phil Fried
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this weeks NMB
By: Philip Fried Date: Oct 31, 2008 - 04:37 AM
http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5748
a personal perspective
By philmusic
"..dodecaphonic composers haven't all completely abandoned their methods just because the neo-romantics came along..."
Very true Frank as you know in my case. I think its time we all listened for the quality of the music not merely for its style.
no sonic prejudice
Phil Fried
http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5738
Ryan doesn't get my subtle arguments and is up to his old tricks a agin-a new voice joins us yet Daniel. His comments alludes to how he avoids Zappa's problem of intention- that a composer can't control how their works are perceived (a well known fact)-- by not having any intention. A good example of "spin."
Iron knee
By philmusic
Colin-I don't know the quote you refer to. Was it about Bert Bacharach? As for "Irony" it seems the basis for a whole lot of recent music, especial of the post-modern type. As for me the problem with Irony is that it can be too text or editorial based, and further, sometimes is the "real thing."
That is- Irony can be a code word for "spin."
Phil Fried
my my my
By philmusic
Ryan, it is quite posiible to present a so called "ironic" event that has no incongruity at all.
I stand by my statement.
By the way, my Mother who is 85, loves the Daily Show. As do all her friends.
Phil Fried
one example and there are many more..
By philmusic
Ok Frank Zappa wrote a song called "Valley Girl". Like many of Zappa's texts it was a severe put down, in this case, of Valley Girls and their mangling of the English language.
Oddly, it sold like hot cakes. Not only did it end up promoting a trend I think it was Zappa's biggest selling song as well.
The public just didn't get it--they thought the song was a "celebration" of "Valley speak".
So an ironic and satirical put down song becomes a celebration of the thing it seeks to criticize.
Hardly what Zappa intended--or did he?
meaning?
By philmusic
"..After deciding to accept the audience's meaning as valid I then stopped trying to achieve meaning via composition..."
Well then Daniel you would agree with Randy who has noted on more than one occasion that music has no meaning.
It seems inconsistent that music for the listener might have a meaning but for the composer no dice. Most composers no matter what their point of view do expect their listeners to get something out of the listening experience after all.
Yet if music has no meaning and I'm thinking about absolute music here, as visual images and written editorials do tend to lead one in a direction, the concepts of integrity, irony, and struggle are irrelevant
Phil Fried
Baggage handler
I understand your point Daniel but I also see some contradictions.
Though it is true that all arts have baggage some of it we are not aware of. That is some of us carry certain baggage and some of it appears in advertisements in magazines we have never read. More people read text than read music, so the baggage of text is far more familiar and powerful to most folks than music is. Also studies have shown most humans are visual learners. Advantage visual.
Seeking to be on an equal plane as your audience is interesting. For myself as a composer I merely seek a disinterested audience and I certainly don't believe in the existence of a "monolithic" audience. There are just too many different auditors out there. How can an group of of college professors be compared to a group of 3rd graders?
Does an "Egoless" artist actively present their work? How does one describe an artist that claims to have found a solution for a problem that threw Frank Zappa for a loop? You chose not to discuss his work-but your own -of which I am unfamiliar. Doesn't this kind of argument just devolve into spin?
Anyway "Egolessness" goes against the grain of today's professional outlook.
Well kudos for that.
Phil Fried
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this week NMB
By: Philip Fried Date: Oct 24, 2008 - 06:10 PM
http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5733
It so happens Adrianne that there is no review--just a "puff" piece.
Its rather smug to accuse others of being jealous ----well...
the point
By philmusic
Um, I don't think we realize what this concert and hundreds of others like it mean. The gatekeepers are outsourcing music composition away from professional composers. I'm not just talking about the "anything but serial types" though that's certainly in the mix.
If there is any sign of our loss of status in the professional world this is it.
Phil Fried
On second thought ..
By philmusic
Perhaps it also shows that for some reason everybody still wants to be us.
Phil Fried, on a much more positive note
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http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5735
Well I talk about this topic in my lessons--Steve gets utopian on us
Ryan gets on his high horse again
Composer vs. Sound Artist
By philmusic
Its interesting Linda that you title your post about the differences between electroacoustic composers and sound artists this way.
Are they at odds?
They must be in some ways as they both compete for many of the same grants, fellowships, and jobs.
Phil Fried
What did I say....
By philmusic
"Well if you ain't gonna bother debunking it in specific terms, then my point will still stand..."
No Ryan. Actually you have merely made an assertion.
Ryan do you honestly intend to hold others to a high standard of "evidence" when you don't do so for yourself?
Phil Fried, I feel better already
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http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5737
I have a different take on this subject-about inhabiting different guise--I start out funny!
confusion?
By philmusic
".. it's an undeniable classic of its genre with virtually no detractors.."
Yes, but are there any virtually virtual detractors?
I mean Dune has virtually no detractors who are virtual??
Sorry
Phil Fried who notes that Dune is partly based on T.E. Lawrence's 7 pillars of Wisdom.
By philmusic
"..Actually perhaps a better example might be Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue or Porgy and Bess, which are both totally unlike what had preceded them..."
Frank, a few years back I attended a concert conducted by Gunther Schuller, where he performed just such a work--the name of the composer, who was African American, escapes me now.
Anyone with info?
Just because Gershwin is remembered doesn't necessarily make his work the "first".
Phil Fried
By philmusic
Thats him! A fine work as I remember.
This get me thinking about T.E. Laurence (of Arabia) again. He mentions in his book that living as another culture is a "yahoo life". Yet we as composers frequently set songs and libretti with the intention of dramatizing things other than ourselves.
Different; genders, ages, cultures, nationalities, sexual orientations, politics, colors, intelligence, animals, inanimate objects, even spirits, etc., etc.
Perhaps then it is better to understand the "many" rather than being the "one".
Phil Fried
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nmb-blogspot
By: Philip Fried Date: Oct 17, 2008 - 08:24 AM
I also put my lessons on blogspot
http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5727
about trained composers -it becomes a discussion of "beauty and uglyness" uglyness is another way of saying non-tonal
I refrain from pointing out the, well, interesting inconsistencies in Mr. Perterson's post
he says he has an open mind -he allows folks to compose all the ugly music they want.
he takes a position all too familiar that the world revolves around his own personal judgments and he creates or learned in college a tautology to fit
he denies hes in the "game"-yet he is so up to his neck in it. he doesn't care yet he wants to explain himself and tell us how great his music is!
he hasn't figured out yet that his opinions are not his own only an an accident of his provincial education --if he had studied somewhere else his opinions would have fallen into line there as well. More stylistic prejudice.
Oh the humanity
sorry I do get my dander up
apples and pears
By philmusic
"..I'd be the first to agree that elevating the prescriptions implied by Straus and Forte to gospel status is unwise..."
Colin I don't mean to interfere with your revelry here but the books you mention are not music composition books at all but merely works about non-tonal analysis.
On that line I think most folks would get a lot more out of George Perle's books.
Phil Fried, who studied with Joe and George
Wednesday, October 08, 2008, 6:37:00 PM
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http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5728
I agree here but I don't let the college thing go.
a point
By philmusic
Questioning the relationship between training and successful works of art is an interesting topic. One must be mindful that there are many different kinds of training. Especially these days when there is so much interpenetration of the arts
Of course there are also many different kinds of results.
Phil Fried
Ivory towers?
By philmusic
"...Just because someone goes to college (as, I'm assuming the majority of the composers on this site did?) doesn't mean they are an emotionless, non-creative automatons that spend half their time worshiping their bust of Schoenberg and the other half whittling away at their own..."
This criticism here is not about "academic" music at all.
What you mention is really the backlash against intellectual approaches to music composition. Granted.
Yet if one looks at your typical college/university composer, and there are 10's of thousands of them, that is not what or who they are at all. Most follow the trends or compose music in tonalities. Some folks want to pretend it ain't so--but it is.
Musical style teams (usually associated with a particular college) throw brickbats at other musical style teams (the others) all the time-hardly worth mentioning.
The general criticism for academic composers is that they are invested with a authenticating title, and all the trimmings, and no one knows who they are.
Phil Fried, Skid-row U
around the topic, sort of
By philmusic
"..but simply that the celebration of one methodology of creativity doesn't require the oedipal destruction of everything else..."
I agree--no style prejudice!
One thing.
Several of the composers I went to grad school with went with the particular objective of becoming college professors. In that sense they did in fact want to be "academic" composers. That is - part of the academy. Self actualization don't you know.
A last thought - many folks who claim to be connected to say, John Cage for instance, tend to overlook just how well trained a musician he was.
I believe he worked with Schoenberg who was self taught.
Phil Fried, overworked and overfed
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http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5725
about my performances...
a personal perspective
By philmusic
In my "stick in the eye" "Man and Machine"performances which are live Upright Electric Bass improvisations with real time electronics-since I am in the moment I don't think about anything-it just happens. I don't practice my improvisations with or without the synth equipment for several reasons. One being if I practiced these performances would not be improvs. I do practice set ups. Saves bunches of time.
That said, as an after thought, I realize that I either ignore, follow, comment, become one, or perhaps just part of the electronic sounds.
For me the the Machine comes last.
Phil Fried
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Aol Shutdown
By: Philip Fried Date: Oct 4, 2008 - 04:19 PM
Sorry Folks after 9 years AOL will shut down my personal page and the entire members.aol.com area by November 1
Until Philfried.com is up you can find the files on my page
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http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5722
my two cents in
By philmusic
I've had many issues with the presentation of "artists" and "composers" in popular culture.
Sometimes the presentation of the conflict between the Artist VS the status quo ends up looking like the choice between drinking coke or pepsi. (Or rather, since alcoholism is featured, vodka or scotch).
That is artistic issues are arbitrary and meaningless.
The "hero worship" approach as found in "The Fountainhead" and other tomes seems just as wrong headed. Here everyone is so self aware- all the "bad architects" know they are bad. Thats so strange as I never met an artist who told me "I'm second rate and proud of it".
Of course composers can also be presented as "self destructive" "crazy" "killers" or "self destructive crazy killers" as in "Hangover Square" (old film) and many other more recent films. Heightened sensitivity don't ya know. -and don't get me started on "serial".
Phil Fried, who did like topsy-turvey
Thursday, October 02, 2008, 10:44:24 AM
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http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5726
dag nabitt--I object!!
By philmusic
".. my observation is that lots of pro musicians–especially guys–would rather endure a root canal than the indignities of a dance floor..."
I love to dance. Even if I forget the steps! Does this mean I'm not a "pro"?
Heavens!!!!
Phil Fried, who is shocked by such banter!
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http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5727 also
http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5728
There is a difference between theory and practise also a good many folks are composing good music without the need for those particuar books--its a non issue really
apples and pears
By philmusic
"..I'd be the first to agree that elevating the prescriptions implied by Straus and Forte to gospel status is unwise..."
Colin I don't mean to interfere with your revelry here but the books you mention are not music composition books at all but merely works about non-tonal analysis.
On that line I think most folks would get a lot more out of George Perle's books.
Phil Fried, who studied with Joe and George
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http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5723
Idiots delight
By philmusic
My own "free" music composition lesson page which I started in 1998, and was based on Rossini's composition techniques, is being closed by AOL. They are shutting down their entire member space.
I have 28 days to relocate if I can-So till then I guess you have to buy that book
Sigh.
Phil Fried
Friday, October 03, 2008, 9:48:21 AM
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http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5722
my two cents in
By philmusic
I've had many issues with the presentation of "artists" and "composers" in popular culture.
Sometimes the presentation of the conflict between the Artist VS the status quo ends up looking like the choice between drinking coke or pepsi. (Or rather, since alcoholism is featured, vodka or scotch).
That is artistic issues are arbitrary and meaningless.
The "hero worship" approach as found in "The Fountainhead" and other tomes seems just as wrong headed. Here everyone is so self aware- all the "bad architects" know they are bad. Thats so strange as I never met an artist who told me "I'm second rate and proud of it".
Of course composers can also be presented as "self destructive" "crazy" "killers" or "self destructive crazy killers" as in "Hangover Square" (old film) and many other more recent films. Heightened sensitivity don't ya know. -and don't get me started on "serial".
Phil Fried, who did like topsy-turvey
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http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5721
By philmusic
".. films typically take more time than most pieces of music and are even less effective as an ambient medium. But maybe that's why I all too rarely have a chance to see a movie.."
On this point Frank you do go against the grain.
Phil Fried
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http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5713
a thought or two...
By philmusic
"I am not implying that the tribute was ridiculous, but rather sublime,.."
Besides religion, music has always been a way of bridging distances between folks. I wouldn't be the first to point out that concerts and performances are also rituals.
Anyway, I find it interesting that many of the things we cherish the most are those seemingly banal objects that become the most intensely personal.
Phil Fried
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more o' the smae
By: Philip Fried Date: Sep 27, 2008 - 01:34 PM
It seems that NMB is now moderated so we no longer have to see prolix Billyboy demand from others what he never expects for himself--the truth- On the other hand now I will have to lay off questioning "people" about if they are who they say they are do what they say they will do. I'm afraid that pousers will end up ruling the roost. They have an unfair advantage because they risk nothing.
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topic of my last post
http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5708
By philmusic
Linda, I know that it is difficult to discuss music that one has not heard but it has always been my preference to like works that are the most straightforward of their type.
"Over composing," that is, adding unnecessary or unmotivated musical details is a problem for me. Perhaps this is similar to idea of "truth".
So how can a professional composer learn to make better choices when everything works?
Phil Fried
Monday, September 22, 2008, 7:23:25 PM
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http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5710
I'm not sure that I get this one but as Frank likes everything equal I make some jokes.
a possibility?
By philmusic
"But does anyone who creates art actually destroy anything? "
Well perhaps not - but there are a few artists who tidy up a bit.
or...
Due to art; somewhere there is someone who did not have such a good time last night.
or....
A composer, who shall remain unnamed, once destroyed my couch oh my-what a grouch.
Phil Fried
Thursday, September 25
(I decided not to mention the burning piano thing again)
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http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5711
Certain compositional techniques can devolve into effects yet what makes them work?
and of time..
By philmusic
For me the question is not just about the musical space a work dwells in but also about the time it dwells there. There are many successful works where a single texture is featured and maintained. Among those works, and the ones that I like the best, are the ones that have just the "right" length for the musical ideas to coalesce. At least for me.
I also know that that "point of rightness" is different for everyone.
Phil Fried
Friday, September 26, 2008, 1:43:22 PM
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over composing-bad scansion
By: Philip Fried Date: Sep 20, 2008 - 01:05 PM
One problem for composers today is that everything works.
How can we improve if we have real no incentives?
I just heard a work, a song, that started off well and it had all the makings of a successful work. (though I'm not sure that I approve of texts written in languages that no one in the room understands because that begs the question how does one judge the scansion?). Then the composer started doing "artistic" stuff" adding unmotivated dissonance, inelegantly changing the texture, forcing contrasts that just impeded the work. The work on its own terms failed even though the basis was good.
Here is the problem; many composers who do not use pitch as an artistic focus, that is they are what I would call consonant non tonal types (some might call them tonal), always seem to feel they have to do something to their music to make it seem "composed." This has to do with form or lack thereof. Yet a traditional song in song form is a fine thing and is still being done today. Why guild the Lilly? Anyway this seems to be about bad composition teaching- forcing a student to take on unnecessary gestures in the name of teaching alone.
Another problem with vocal works is bad scansion, yet the latest Pulitzer prize work, has extremely bad scansion. Sister sister .... At best bad scansion sounds mannered and silly at worst you can't understand a single word of text. This is of course frequently happens in pop music where innocent is rendered as in a scent. This comes from 2 things either a lack of experience or deeming a melodic formation more important than the words that are set to it. Melodic formations can be altered to fit the words so there is no need to be inflexible. That's what composers do.
Of course if your interest is only in the phonemes that's a different story.
A compositional choice is not an accident.
I recently heard what was supposed to be a humorous work but as the scansion was completely skewed the words were impossible to understand. That begs the question of what did the composer intend?
Phil Fried
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more NMB replies
By: Philip Fried Date: Sep 20, 2008 - 12:36 PM
http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5704
A subject I'm familler with -yet I'm sure that the teaching andjargon have changed since the 1980's.
tech talk jargon free!
By philmusic
As a serial composer myself, I find that I do not dwell to much on the precompositional because so many works have similar blue prints but very different results.
The main choice for me is whether I want to have more than 12 different pitches at once and how I achieve this as this would be outside traditional (I know, who's tradition?) serial procedures.
Sometimes I generate related rows, a la Webern in his piano concerto. (Yes I know I'm the only one who calls it that-yet the piano does have half the notes). Sometimes I like to use additional "incomplete" formations so that the "main" row is not usurped. As in my Elements 4.
Phil Fried, who still uses pitches not numbers for his rows.
Dear Jon, jargon free
By philmusic
"What is it about making choices by ear and intuition that seems insufficient?
I'm confused here, why is serial music and the above statement not confluent? It is for me as I use both my ear and my intuition constantly. The use of precompositional material-that is a plan-occurs in many types of music, "sonata form" for example or a "song," not to mention the "key of D major".
So serial music is just a type of plan. True it is a intellectual approach to the use of pitch. Some folks are uncomfortable with that as America is not really known for its love of smart people. On the other hand no stylistic approach guarantees results.
If you don't like the "sound" of a style of music its pretty easy to believe what you want to believe about it. If you start avoiding serial music you never find out how different we all sound.
avoid sonic prejudice
Phil Fried
Sunday, September 21, 2008, 10:16:45 AM
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http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5702
europe VS america -- america VS NYC
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