more NMB stuff
By: Philip Fried Date: Sep 28, 2007 - 03:01 PM
Why I love theorists:
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
Here a Theorist, There a Theorist
With them there’s know doubt
When you have a theorist You know what your about
With a Theorist, and a Theorist
It is always Spring
When you know a theorist You always want to sing
Put a Bennie on your Urlinie
A figured bass, will always know its place,
not in outer space!
Here a Theorist, There a Theorist
What is there to say?
When you have a theorist You always find the way!
Here a Theorist, There a Theorist
With them there’s know doubt
When you have a theorist
You know what your about You know what your about!
sometime I just gatta rhyme all rights (and wrongs) reserved by Phil Fried 2007
________________________________________________________________
Ryan quotes this article to object to the avante-garde's claims of universalism:
here http://quasar.lib.uoguelph.ca/index.php/csieci/article/view/6/14
lets talk politics then
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
I'm not so sure that Mr. Lewis's objections are so much to universality--but rather to the theft and appropriation of culture and musical style and the power that can be achieved over the originators by such theft. I've heard such works myself. I think we are talking about authenticity here. On the other hand it seems reasonable that people working independently and from different musical backgrounds can come up with very similar results. Whether these results are in conflict or in confluence is a political question.
I think this get us back to our Kenny G. rants.
Phil Fried
Comments: 0 Edit
more NMB replys
By: Philip Fried Date: Sep 27, 2007 - 06:53 AM
Â
Mark claims to have heard a bady orchestrated work and reasons that "ugly" is in? This is my take on critism of others musical works.
 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5251Â
loyalty oath
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
The fact that music deemed "flawed," is performed in concert halls or Manhattan venues prestigious or not, is nothing new. There is a long tradition of "bad" music making and "bad" composition going back centuries. Some of these compositions have been rediscovered and vindicated over time, and some of these works well, not now or ever.
As Schoenberg pointed out; some academic positions lead to all kinds of performance opportunities. Anyway, our profession allows works to be judged solely by there own sub group of composition, so naturally some of the other sub groups tend to object.
Why is there no criticism from within then? The problem is that our profession requires loyalty-and I've talked about the sports "team" mentality here before. Since loyalty trumps personal feelings there is no real way to know if people actually like the music they profess to love. Or dislike it for that matter. Careers so depend on the good will of others.
inspiration at last!
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
I dispute with Ryan:
just a thought
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
"Music has surprisingly little power in swaying the outcome of political or social changes (all the anti-Bush musics in the world did not stop him from getting re-elected)"
Actually it could be argued that all the anti Bush music--GOT HIM ELECTED! Since his campaign was based on the polarization of America.
Dr. Phil
http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5253
This is about why people hate recent arts
John Waters did a film on this very subject "Pecker."
The disconnect can come in the visual arts when those who understand and admire the visual techniques of the old masters don't understand how the recent techniques of conceptual artists relate back to them. But Frank, you don't give enough detail to know what kind of art is being objected to.
Anyway the only cure for the unfamiliar is experience, and at an early age before "group think" sets in.
Phil Fried. Phil’s Page
at a prestigious Manhattan venue
I heard music performed on kazoo
It wasn't particularly new
at a prestigious Manhattan venue
at a prestigious Manhattan venue
the conductor wore a tutu
the soloist perhaps had the flu
at a prestigious Manhattan venue
at a prestigious Manhattan venue
My date wore a mini skirt too
she knew what exactly to do
we left a prestigious Manhattan venue
at a prestigious Manhattan venue the composer decided to sue
the performance wasn't exactly true
at a prestigious Manhattan venue
at a prestigious Manhattan venue
we can find better things for to do
but how could we know if we knew?
at a prestigious Manhattan venue
all rights reserved by me Dr. Philip Fried 2007
Comments: 0 Edit
b
By: Philip Fried Date: Sep 27, 2007 - 06:53 AM
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ISIM convention and NMB
By: Philip Fried Date: Nov 26, 2007 - 04:40 PM
I'm on my way to the ISIM convention, I hope to see some of you there. I have been out of the Improv scene for about 20 years but I am now back performing for the last 5 years with some success. So I wonder how my approach will be accepted.
Here is another NMB response, very related to my subject, in this case Ryan takes as his point of reference George Lewis against John Cage. So I wonder what the thought streams will be and if I will be confluent.
I disagree- Ryan’s position is quite clear—that the acceptance of any “Universalism” either Cageian or Communist, or anyone else’s that denies the past would be cultural suicide. As quoted:
“ the African-American improviser, coming from a legacy of slavery and oppression, cannot countenance the erasure of history. (Lewis, 233)” …”
I believe that the words “never forget” are familiar to some of us.
My problem with Ryan’s postings is that he does not stress this important main point, but rather tends to “bate” folks, who perhaps see the world differently, and to nibble around the edges arguing minutia. Besides temporarily changing his position when challenged. Phil Fried --[Ryan also offers prolix advise and opinions on topics with which he has only the most rudimentary experience.]
We will see!
Comments: -1 Edit
NMB reply Frank Oteri
By: Philip Fried Date: Nov 14, 2007 - 10:37 AM
“In the final analysis, it's a question of scale…”
Frank I also think that it’s a question of “time”. As, the musical trends that affect us change so do the challenges we have as composers and audiences. The trends on TV have changed. Now “reality” shows muscle out the “situation comedies” and who remembers the variety shows?
Time is also an issue in that many composers are in a hurry to make their mark and make it now! How many of us have or had particular timelines in our heads?
As for it being “impossible to win” it’s a good mindset to feel bullet proof but I’m not so sure that will work for everyone. Any art, or in any sport for that matter, involve loss and risk. How we cope with that loss and success tells us everythingsays a lot about us.
Comments: 0 Edit
composers and the free market NMB
By: Philip Fried Date: Nov 9, 2007 - 11:49 PM
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
“Why do we Americans try to succeed on the free market?”
Two things:
1) Many composers don’t.
2) Since we live in a capitalist country we are obliged to compete in it if we want to or not. Actually are markets are not really free.
Of the composers who do try, there are;
The composers who are simpatico with the public, everyone wins.
The composers who try to pander to the public- this doesn’t work.
The composers who work a particular “niche”, most of us I think.
The composers who are chosen by the gatekeepers - not always for what they do-but for what they don’t do.
Phil Fried
__________________________________________________________________
Ok when you blog you have to deal many different people some are here only to pull your chain! Here is one such exchange: I ask a simple question --well lets see!
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
I think I would like to hear from the performers on this subject--how do they work their commissions?
Madame--how about a real name, and the publishers you work for? What do they pay composers?
Phil Fried
Thursday, November 08, 2007, 3:07:44 PM
By rtanaka -ryant@ryangtanaka.com
Performers usually make money through teaching and gigging for the most part. If you play one gig and do an OK job then word gets around and they might call you for another. If you can manage to get a decent reputation among a number of people, then it's possible to string enough of them together and make a pretty decent living.
Performers don't have the luxury to be too picky, so they go where the money goes. But if going the commercial route isn't acceptable, one great way to make a living is to play for weddings or parties for rich people. Hey, and if they like you, maybe they'll call you back over and over, and you can be their "court musician". Have things changed all that much, really?
Thursday, November 08, 2007, 3:51:10 PM
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
"...Performers usually make money..."
Ryan...I did not ask how performers make money,I think that many of us know that. I asked if they (performers) would share how they commission composers--anyway that's what I thought I did!
Phil Fried
A wife with no name-do I feel a song coming on?
Thursday, November 08, 2007, 4:53:02 PM
By rtanaka -ryant@ryangtanaka.com
Oh, sorry. I misread your post.
Why do performers commission works? Umm, isn't it because they like so-and-so's music?
If you want to look at it more cynically, reputation is something that also plays a big factor. Being able to say that you premiered a work by a well-known composer looks very good in your bio, and I've known some people who went this route and seems to have capitalized on it pretty well. Hopefully the music will still be good.
If you have no real reputation (like the rest of us) then you'll have to write something that someone might actually want to play. That's why it helps to be in dialogue with performers all the time if you want more performances of your work. There's no guarantee that it'll be worth your time in terms of $$$, but if the composer is on the same page as the performer, then they'll probably gladly perform your stuff. Common sense, I think?
Thursday, November 08, 2007, 4:58:48 PM
He said He said..
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
I..."asked if they (performers) would share how they commission composers--anyway that's what I thought I did!..."
"Oh, sorry. I misread your post. Why do performers commission works?"
Nope--we are not on the same page yet Ryan.
I said How and you said Why and now you've gone and made me cry!
Phil Fried
Thursday, November 08, 2007, 5:50:19 PM
By rtanaka -ryant@ryangtanaka.com
Um, the procedure itself isn't too complicated...
Performer: I need a piece by (date).
Composer: OK
Piece is handed to the performer by (date), although sometimes. Sometimes the composer is given a check for their efforts. What more is there to know?
Thursday, November 08, 2007, 6:32:22 PM
By rtanaka -ryant@ryangtanaka.com
Meant to say above that sometimes composers can be pretty delinquent in meeting deadlines. Even fairly reputable ones have been known to skimp out or ask extensions.
Most it just boils down to the idea that a if bunch of people like your stuff, they will play it. The rest are just variables based on reputation and amount of funding each organization might have.
Thursday, November 08, 2007, 6:38:20 PM
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
Its gotten very quiet again-is Ryan the only performer who is willing to tell us how much they pay a composer to write music for them? well actually Ryan didn't tell anything us he only speculated about others. One last time
Ryan-have "you" [ever] commissioned a musical work--yes or no
If yes--did you pay the composer?
Phil Fried
Oh it occurs to me that a composers ability to manage their money is a factor in their financial health, as would be the "in kind" non-cash payments that a composer working in a dictatorship.
Thursday, November 08, 2007, 8:11:24 PM
hmmmm
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
"..composers can be pretty delinquent in meeting deadlines. Even fairly reputable ones have been known to skimp out or ask extensions..."
Composers--such bad people.
It seems that you don't like composers very much Ryan. Oh dear. Well, I will have to keep that in mind from now on.
Phil Fried
Thursday, November 08, 2007, 8:56:11 PM
By rtanaka -ryant@ryangtanaka.com
Hey now, I'm just saying things that actually happen in real life. Most composers meet deadlines, some don't. Sometimes things happen, and it's not the composer's fault. Sometimes it is.
I've been commissioned a few of times and the process is always the same. Someone asks me to write a piece, then I say yes or no depending. Sometimes there is a due date, sometimes not. I've gotten like 20 bucks, a dinner, but most of the time I've gotten nothing because it's always just been amongst friends.
I'm really not sure what kind of answer you're looking for -- I always thought the process itself was pretty straightforward...what could there possibly be more to it than that?
Thursday, November 08, 2007, 10:16:54 PM
every? ever--yikkes
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
-have "you" every commissioned a musical work--yes or no
-have "you" "ever" commissioned a musical work--yes or no
It seems that you have not.
its late and I been orchestrating too long
anyone else?
Phil Fried
Then no reply
Comments: 0 Edit
MN Orchestra reading sessions NMB addenda
By: Philip Fried Date: Nov 8, 2007 - 12:32 PM
http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5312
Ok-- Colin Holter thought that the composers represented this year were not very international in style--very "conservative" in fact.
The blog went into the pros and cons and quite a few misunderstanding about "experimental" or "innovative" music. Every few years the "lingo" changes so this can happen.
Anyway here are my posts:
old or new a few thoughts too..
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com I'm interested in "quality" music sure, but for me that's about "form"-- "style" is a secondary consideration. I think we must look beneath the surface. Huh?
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"...serialism is passe, as colin mentioned..."
I guess I didn't get the memo!
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"However, it is simply a fact that this is not the orchestra audience. That is not what the audience of symphony orchestra's is interested in. ..." Sorry I didn't get this memo either.
Phil Fried
another memo missed
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"Two things we're always seeking in our work, are to be original and relevant..." This doesn't ring any bells. or dog whistles!--
[Note a flamer named "somebody" has been complaining and modern music and unfair competitions--thus example dog whistles.]
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
I see a lot of speculations here about the MN reading program and a lot of "what ifs.." I encourage you all to apply.
It is possible that some of you have applied and been turned down for a reading or have not even applied because you think there are unstated rules.
I too have been turned down-in fact twice before my work was accepted. In my experience The MN Orchestra reading sessions are far more open style-wise to "experimental music" or any kind of music than many a "new music " group.
So many of these so called "new music groups" are private parties that have a bad habit of excluding particular styles or musical "Teams". I have mentioned this before. Phil Fried
[as folks ignore my offer I get silly]
sorry in advance! By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"some time ago, a colleague sitting next to me said,..."
Didn't you mean a "Collie" sitting next to me? Or perhaps a "Pug." You know that new music is go'in to the dawgs! I think I'd better go wet my whistle!
Phil Fried
Phil By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com [Alex gets mad at somebody]
Alex--cut it out! Remember your nobody till somebody loves you. Phil another fix
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
Never write for orchestra, unless they Neo-Romantic
Never write a blog unless it’s pedantic
Never mention music from across the Atlantic
Never have opinions unless they tyranic
When referring to the experimental
Only mention things tangential.
And remember never to define your terms
Because too much agreement makes us squirm.
Experimental and innovative can in no possible way be related In fact would it be such a bereavement
If we were all really in agreement?
y i rhyme [pgblu-askes why?] By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
I believe that this is a free and open forum. At least I don't talk about my sumptuous dinners with important friends.
[madame.. chimes in and stirs things up!]
Her post:
Dear Somebody By madamecynthia - mdmecynthia@yahoo.com
have you ever thought that maybe you have a completly overblown perception of your work? Maybe that is the reason why no orchestra wants to play it. After all there are so many anonymous competitions in the world-if you never get anywhere with your music-the most obvious conclusion is no-one finds merit in it. And back to the theme of new and old- the upsurge of European composition teachers ( Ferneyhough, Murail, Levy, Anderson, Tutschku, Czernowin just to name a few) shows that the intelectional rigour of composition seems mainly to come from the other side of the Atlantic.
another memo missed By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"..the intelectional rigour of composition seems mainly to come from the other side of the Atlantic..." No, I did not get this memo, nor do I think did Milton Babbitt,Elliot Carter, George Perle, etc etc. etc. etc.etc etc. etc. etc. Phil Fried
Oh--that By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
..Or would you care to contemplate why so many top-teaching positions are given european composers? I have! Probably for the same reason that American composers hold so few "top-teaching positions" positions in Europe and Canada.
Phil Fried
ok lets look again By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com "
..the intelectional rigour of composition seems mainly to come from the other side of the Atlantic..."
Ok "SEEMS" --this is would be a question of the different musical trends in Europe and America--If you are saying that there is an anti-intellectual trend in the US I agree.
I mentioned names that one might recognise and there are many others. Yet unlike Europe--how would you get know them?
Maybe here!!!!
Phil Fried
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5317
My reply to the above on NMB
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com Mark,
I a little disappointed in your blog post.
At first you get our hopes up with some interesting information about composers financial lives, only to revert to the same old stereotypes and half truths so common today:
Schoenberg --Bad-- and a liar to boot! Uh-uh?
Cage good-- because poor people love him? Sure thing fella.
Carter- rich!!! uptown snobs only! --please!
I object to you giving information about some composers than speculating and inferring about others. Perhaps those are the composers who don't fit into your tidy thesis.
[after the very long explaination , and not from Mr. Grant--I reply]
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
As you point out that you were merely repeating the comments of “someone else” and any number of folks might have said the same thing.
I will quote Emily Littella—“never mind.”
But Please consider this;
“…In America we speak routinely now of race, ethnicity, disability, gender, and sexuality, but class is still taboo—“
“Position” is also a component of “class.” As in; who is in a “position” to be “our” spokespeople and whether or not we can accept the “spin” they chose to give our artistic lives.
Phil Fried
Comments: 0 Edit
NMB addenda
By: Philip Fried Date: Nov 3, 2007 - 12:09 PM
Recently on NMB Frank Oteri asked folks to name their favorite living composers. Surprisingly very few took up the offer and those few that did were the same few composers from sequenza21 who always praise each others music. “Log rolling” as Spy magazine used to call it. Mr. Brown got quite defensive and then aggressive about defending that web site and I suppose the composers within—oh I'm one of them but I don't blog there:
As always..
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"I think we end up being a reflection of the state of the broader industry -- our coverage of music by women and minorities is too small because they're underrepresented in the industry as a whole, and we cover the stuff we know about. "
The problem is always someone else!
Phil Fried
His reply:
By GalenHBrown - galen@galenbrown.com
Well, sure Phil, but I'm not saying we don't have a problem. I agree that it would be great if S21 were more successful at representing women and minorities. My point is that it's not "Sequenza21 has a problem" as I sometimes hear, but that the industry has a problem and in spite of our best efforts we're not combatting that problem as effectively as we would like to be. People also sometimes complain that S21 is too New York or East Coast centric, and it's true. I don't know why more non-New Yorkers don't join up and help improve the situation, and I'd love it if in addition to the "Last Night in LA" feature we had "Last Night in Peoria" and "Last Night in Oshkosh." The thing is, though, that if you think the New York Times or the Boston Globe underrepresents women, minorities, non-eastcoasters, or whomever, all you can really do is write a letter to the editor and hope they listen. With Sequenza21 and with blogging in general you can actually do something to fix it. I'm not saying put up or shut up, but it would be nice if our critics would at least attribute our shortcomings to their actual causes rather than assuming that we're acting in bad faith.
Wednesday, October 17, 2007, 2:20:19 PM
My feelings about his reply which reflects our industry in general.
soapbox alert!
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
Galen, I think this attitude is why composers are considered so irrelevant in America. We expect everything and we owe nothing.
Phil Fried
Wednesday, October 17, 2007, 6:14:31 PM
Now his more aggressive reply
By GalenHBrown - galen@galenbrown.com
Sorry, Phil, who exactly is "expecting everything and owing nothing?" I'm expecting people to try to be reasonable and fair. Is that so far out of line? And as I've said many different ways in this discussion I AGREE that Sequenza21 has a responsibility to be inclusive and to try to overcome the problems in the industry, and that we aren't as successful as we'd like to be. So we have a responsibility to keep trying to do a better job. Which we're doing. And we have a responsibility to listen to our critics--it's helpful to have feedback on how well or poorly we're doing at inclusivity and fair representation--and I'm finding parts of this discussion very helpful. But only the parts that are reasonable and fair.
My final point
"We composers." That would be "us" I think.
Wasn't it clear?
__________________________________________________________
My problem with sequenza21, is that it is a commercial site that supports the status quo and it makes up separate rules for those they like and those that they don't . For example; corporate support is denigrated selectively-- overlooking the cigarette and liquor money that keeps (or kept) the BAM afloat.
Comments: 0 Edit
Mercy on Broadway
By: Philip Fried Date: Oct 13, 2007 - 01:44 PM
As I watched the previews of of a recent Broadway musical "...Blond..."on VH1 I realize that this work has much more in common with silent movies than with musicals of days past. That is it was created for the bulk of the today's Broadway audience-- those foreign tourists who don't happen to speak English. So, it must look good, have big simple gesture acting, and the music must sound familiar. It helps if the audience already sort of knows the story--from the original talking (dubbed or subtitled)-movie.
Comments: 0 Edit
who are you NMB reply
By: Philip Fried Date: Oct 13, 2007 - 01:33 PM
Frank, you have a mission statement don't you? Then decide who you "want" to be associated with- then figure out who you "have" to be associated with. And whatever you do don't forget;
those backslapp'in frat boys Out every night
they know that they are their own hearts delight
those backslapp'in frat boys
scrap’ in for a fight
they know they can't lose because they’re always right
those backslapp'in frat boys
It’s such a mystery
why they must insist on telling us their extremely detailed and idiosyncratic personal view of history?
those backslapp'in frat boys
I wish they were mild
tune into another segment of alpha males gone wild.
those backslapp'in frat boys
they have a ball!
because they know you "can" fight city hall!
those backslapp'in frat boys
there is never to few!
sorry to say it
I guess I'm one too!
I apologize in advance to all!
Phil's page
Thursday, October 11, 2007, 12:51:51 PM
I apologize to myself!
a
Comments: 0 Edit
nmb replies Ives
By: Philip Fried Date: Oct 8, 2007 - 05:01 PM
Did Ives backdate his music to see, more "modern"?
I Apologize in advance to that "old black magic"
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
That old Carter transgression
that I know so well
That old Carter transgression
that we retell and retell
those Ives'y score that get backdated too
He did so many -yet he didn't do
That old Carter transgression
How could we know?
That old Carter transgression
can someone show?
So, round and round I go, through the internet I know.
looking for proof, the proof that is the truth
about that old Carter transgression
maybe today!
Thursday, October 04, 2007, 3:16:52 PM
also-----
I never believed that stuff about Ives, it always seemed that those who said it had some kind of agenda - and not hidden!
Phil Fried
Comments: 0 Edit
the new music scene more NMB replies
By: Philip Fried Date: Oct 8, 2007 - 04:58 PM
the best of all possible worlds
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
It seems that there is a call in our industry for "fair play." I'm all for it. The problem is this; self interest and interconnection. Any attempt to "police" the new music scene would simply impose another set of self interests and interconnections- no better, no worse, and probably no different either.
One can note the lack of vision of the gate keepers. They must do more for new composers-- but we forget just how little power these folks actually have. They too must respond to the market place. There was a saying; "No one was ever fired for hiring IBM." It follows that gate keepers keep this in mind. This is how composers become a brand and get performed again and again.
As too whether the new music scene is "the best of all possible worlds." Hardly. Classical music has over its history shows a peculiar way of masking its great composers from sight, while dwelling on the musicians of the moment.
I suppose it is no comfort to any of us that all composers from top to bottom of the success ladder, with a very few exceptions, feel that they have been denied something that they deserved. Sometimes the game is rigged, sometimes not--but the answer is to just keep playing. For example; there is a performance organization that is very up front that no 12-tone composers should apply - so how many organizations are exactly the same way but don't tell you? They just send the rejection letter.
For myself I say this; I am glad I live in the USA where I can still be a composer without being "official" or part of an institution, academic of otherwise. I can still get performed, and I can still compete for grants and awards and I can still win some and lose some.
Phil's page
Comments: 0 Edit
composing out
By: Philip Fried Date: Sep 29, 2007 - 09:38 PM
After 10 years I just finished work on my Opera: The Snows of Kilimanjaro.
The strange thing for me was the experience of composing my way out of the work, after composing myself into it for so long. The last 300 measures just flowed out yet the sense of conclusion after so long was so powerful to me that I almost did not want it to end. Has anyone else had this experience?
Comments: 0 Edit
another rhyme response to colin
By: Philip Fried Date: Sep 29, 2007 - 09:33 PM
By Colin Holter - cholter2@uiuc.edu
In response to Grant's response to "In response to Grant:" I understand that you consider this particular unnamed piece emblematic of a widespread problem in contemporary music. However, I don't live in New York, I don't have access to a library of recent concert programs, and I am not interested in batting around (ha!) baseball metaphors, Adorno quotes, and broad generalizations unless we can look at a score together and be absolutely certain that we are discussing the same phenomena. Even if the piece you heard sucked, and indeed it may have, your effigy of a "baby boomer or Gen-Alphabetter" hack who can't harmonize a chorale is an indictment–not only unconvincing but also grossly unfair–of several generations of American composers, and although I've met a few who meet your description, it's a blanket statement that doesn't hold water. I just won't stand for it. I am excusing myself from further debate until you or somebody else presents some genuine data.
Saturday, September 29, 2007,
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
In response to Grant's response to "In response to Grant:"
one must learn to tell the difference between a blog and a silly rant.
In response to Grant's response to "In response to Grant:"
one must know what one can comment on and what one can't.
In response to Grant's response to "In response to Grant:"
if we do not know the work how can we sing or chant?
In response to Grant's response to "In response to Grant:"
There is no "good" or "bad"-- no reason to be sad
In response to Grant's response to "In response to Grant:"
Phil Fried
Comments: 0 Edit
more NMB stuff
By: Philip Fried Date: Sep 28, 2007 - 03:01 PM
Why I love theorists:
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
Here a Theorist, There a Theorist
With them there’s know doubt
When you have a theorist You know what your about
With a Theorist, and a Theorist
It is always Spring
When you know a theorist You always want to sing
Put a Bennie on your Urlinie
A figured bass, will always know its place,
not in outer space!
Here a Theorist, There a Theorist
What is there to say?
When you have a theorist You always find the way!
Here a Theorist, There a Theorist
With them there’s know doubt
When you have a theorist
You know what your about You know what your about!
sometime I just gatta rhyme all rights (and wrongs) reserved by Phil Fried 2007
________________________________________________________________
Ryan quotes this article to object to the avante-garde's claims of universalism:
here http://quasar.lib.uoguelph.ca/index.php/csieci/article/view/6/14
lets talk politics then
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
I'm not so sure that Mr. Lewis's objections are so much to universality--but rather to the theft and appropriation of culture and musical style, and history and the power that can be achieved over the originators by such theft. I've heard such works myself. I think we are talking about authenticity here. On the other hand it seems reasonable that people working independently and from different musical backgrounds can come up with very similar results. Whether these results are in conflict or in confluence is a political question.
I think this get us back to our Kenny G. rants.
Phil Fried
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more NMB stuff
By: Philip Fried Date: Sep 28, 2007 - 03:01 PM
Why I love theorists:
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
Here a Theorist, There a Theorist
With them there’s know doubt
When you have a theorist You know what your about
With a Theorist, and a Theorist
It is always Spring
When you know a theorist You always want to sing
Put a Bennie on your Urlinie
A figured bass, will always know its place,
not in outer space!
Here a Theorist, There a Theorist
What is there to say?
When you have a theorist You always find the way!
Here a Theorist, There a Theorist
With them there’s know doubt
When you have a theorist
You know what your about You know what your about!
sometime I just gatta rhyme all rights (and wrongs) reserved by Phil Fried 2007
________________________________________________________________
Ryan quotes this article to object to the avante-garde's claims of universalism:
here http://quasar.lib.uoguelph.ca/index.php/csieci/article/view/6/14
lets talk politics then
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
I'm not so sure that Mr. Lewis's objections are so much to universality--but rather to the theft and appropriation of culture and musical style and the power that can be achieved over the originators by such theft. I've heard such works myself. I think we are talking about authenticity here. On the other hand it seems reasonable that people working independently and from different musical backgrounds can come up with very similar results. Whether these results are in conflict or in confluence is a political question.
I think this get us back to our Kenny G. rants.
Phil Fried
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more NMB replys
By: Philip Fried Date: Sep 27, 2007 - 06:53 AM
Â
Mark claims to have heard a bady orchestrated work and reasons that "ugly" is in? This is my take on critism of others musical works.
 http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5251Â
loyalty oath
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
The fact that music deemed "flawed," is performed in concert halls or Manhattan venues prestigious or not, is nothing new. There is a long tradition of "bad" music making and "bad" composition going back centuries. Some of these compositions have been rediscovered and vindicated over time, and some of these works well, not now or ever.
As Schoenberg pointed out; some academic positions lead to all kinds of performance opportunities. Anyway, our profession allows works to be judged solely by there own sub group of composition, so naturally some of the other sub groups tend to object.
Why is there no criticism from within then? The problem is that our profession requires loyalty-and I've talked about the sports "team" mentality here before. Since loyalty trumps personal feelings there is no real way to know if people actually like the music they profess to love. Or dislike it for that matter. Careers so depend on the good will of others.
inspiration at last!
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
I dispute with Ryan:
just a thought
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
"Music has surprisingly little power in swaying the outcome of political or social changes (all the anti-Bush musics in the world did not stop him from getting re-elected)"
Actually it could be argued that all the anti Bush music--GOT HIM ELECTED! Since his campaign was based on the polarization of America.
Dr. Phil
http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5253
This is about why people hate recent arts
John Waters did a film on this very subject "Pecker."
The disconnect can come in the visual arts when those who understand and admire the visual techniques of the old masters don't understand how the recent techniques of conceptual artists relate back to them. But Frank, you don't give enough detail to know what kind of art is being objected to.
Anyway the only cure for the unfamiliar is experience, and at an early age before "group think" sets in.
Phil Fried. Phil’s Page
at a prestigious Manhattan venue
I heard music performed on kazoo
It wasn't particularly new
at a prestigious Manhattan venue
at a prestigious Manhattan venue
the conductor wore a tutu
the soloist perhaps had the flu
at a prestigious Manhattan venue
at a prestigious Manhattan venue
My date wore a mini skirt too
she knew what exactly to do
we left a prestigious Manhattan venue
at a prestigious Manhattan venue the composer decided to sue
the performance wasn't exactly true
at a prestigious Manhattan venue
at a prestigious Manhattan venue
we can find better things for to do
but how could we know if we knew?
at a prestigious Manhattan venue
all rights reserved by me Dr. Philip Fried 2007
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b
By: Philip Fried Date: Sep 27, 2007 - 06:53 AM
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OK, So What Is
By: Philip Fried Date: Sep 13, 2007 - 05:56 AM
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
As I have mentioned before I have used the term NMT for some time, I got it from Ben Krywosz, My wife Janet has been involved with many such performances. Salzman is well respected and obviously creating an excellent study.
I prefer to write about Opera, which is my interest-I think there is quite a lot of exploration to be done in so-called "traditional Opera." Anyway excuse the shameless self promotion.
My point of view here: Phil's Page http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/PHILJANET/phil_home.html
As too New music theater I think there is a huge range of music from traditional narritive types to the "incomprehenseable" -meaning works where you need editorial to understand them.
In pointed responce to W.O. that there is no training available for opera composers
what is the sound of one hand clapping?
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
I believe that both NYU and Yale have music theater programs which include composing--I have heard a performance of NYU composers. Ben Kryosz has a composer/libretto instutite here in the twin cities --where we live--and I'm sure that there are many others.
Oh, If you had bothered to read my page you might have noticed that I also point out that stuff about Wagner etc etc.
One could also study with an experianced Opera composer, but the main problem with composing Opera today is not training -but opportunity. Who gets it and why? From my point of view training has very little to do with it.
A reply to Frank--but I don't think the comments were for me!
Ya got me there Frank!
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
On the other hand it could still be argued that the theatrical gift does not always translate back or forth into absolute music or vocal music for that matter.
Frank, are you saying that all of a composers compositions and activities are of equal importance to their understanding? I love Rossini's string quintets and also base my composition teaching techniques on his--but he will always be an Opera composer to me, and to many, many, many, many, many, other folks.
And for Rossini it would never be a pigeon--it would be a squab! LOL
Phil
P.S. No study of New Music theater would be complete without the work of H. Wesley Balk.
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 1:18:31 PM
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OK, So What Is "New Music Theater"? reply to Mark Gran NMBt
By: Philip Fried Date: Sep 13, 2007 - 05:56 AM
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
As I have mentioned before I have used the term NMT for some time, I got it from Ben Krywosz, My wife Janet has been involved with many such performances. Salzman is well respected and obviously creating an excellent study.
I prefer to write about Opera, which is my interest-I think there is quite a lot of exploration to be done in so-called "traditional Opera." Anyway excuse the shameless self promotion.
My point of view here: Phil's Page http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/PHILJANET/phil_home.html
As too New music theater I think there is a huge range of music from traditional narritive types to the "incomprehenseable" -meaning works where you need editorial to understand them.
In pointed responce to W.O. that there is no training available for opera composers
what is the sound of one hand clapping?
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
I believe that both NYU and Yale have music theater programs which include composing--I have heard a performance of NYU composers. Ben Kryosz has a composer/libretto instutite here in the twin cities --where we live--and I'm sure that there are many others.
Oh, If you had bothered to read my page you might have noticed that I also point out that stuff about Wagner etc etc.
One could also study with an experianced Opera composer, but the main problem with composing Opera today is not training -but opportunity. Who gets it and why? From my point of view training has very little to do with it.
A reply to Frank--but I don't think the comments were for me!
Ya got me there Frank!
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
On the other hand it could still be argued that the theatrical gift does not always translate back or forth into absolute music or vocal music for that matter.
Frank, are you saying that all of a composers compositions and activities are of equal importance to their understanding? I love Rossini's string quintets and also base my composition teaching techniques on his--but he will always be an Opera composer to me, and to many, many, many, many, many, other folks.
And for Rossini it would never be a pigeon--it would be a squab! LOL
Phil
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 1:18:31 PM
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nmb reply Mark N. Grant-performance art
By: Philip Fried Date: Sep 3, 2007 - 06:16 PM
"..he was more performance artist than monologuist, because he was not a skilled actor. My point was that Vachel Lindsay is actually closer in style to our postmodern performance "
I know that this is a late comment but I am not convinced that performance artists are not skilled at what they do, and that you can't be one if you are skilled. Dividing performers in this manner seems arbitrary. Gypsy Rose Lee was quite skilled at stripping and adding intellectual subtexts to her performances.
I know many performance art people in the twin cities who are skilled. --Shawn McConnlough and her Orchestra for example---Even if I accept that some performance artists are "unskilled," perhaps these "unskilled" performers you allude to are very skilled at getting themselves well known -- isn't that also a skill?
Besides I thought there were no bad performers only unsuccessful one.
Phil
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"History is written by the winners."
By: Philip Fried Date: Aug 31, 2007 - 11:46 AM
Its been said, "History is written by the winners." Is this true when it comes to music history? So much of what I read seems to be motivated not by reporting certain musical ideas but by the obvious delight over those who in their opinion seem to have missed the boat. In the battleground of recent music we find that past historical conclusions are wrong again and again. Is it that commentators tend to reflect majority opinions so to cater to and claim leadership among them?
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new music box reply--Kenny G.
By: Philip Fried Date: Aug 25, 2007 - 11:19 PM
I think the reason why there is so much spewing of hate towards Kenny G. its this:
He is very, very successful and for the many, and for the uninformed listeners --he is jazz--period.
Some of us know better, but I can see that his success and the success of others like him force niche musicians into the mass market in order to compete and earn a living. No one like to be reminded that the rules of the game are not in their own control.
It can be very galling to have ones art form represented by someone you don't respect!
___________________________________________________________
Reply to Frank Oteri
"But you lose me when you use the word "merit." Who determines that merit and can it be determined in a contemporary music sound world that has successfully emancipated itself from isms? And if indeed it can, that means that certain gestures are still taboo."
I'm not sure I agree with you on this. Let's say this--its not the "gesture" itself that is the problem -- its the implementation of that gesture that can be a variable.
Otherwise all gestures would be alike, and there would be no difference between an experienced composer and a student.
As for who determines merit?--well, we all do.
________________________________________________________
I myself admire people who do not dismiss what they don't like. We can all be wrong--I know I have. One can always find something about music that is interesting and worthy of study-even if the point of that study is --what not to do!!!
To me all theories and ideas about music spring from like and dislike.
Phil's Page
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