Your blog can be viewed at http://classicallounge.com/Philmusic/blogs
Mr. D strikes back
By: Philip Fried Date: Dec 21, 2007 - 11:00 AM
Since Mr. D. can position his arguments to mean anything, there is no point in continuing this.
Is playing an incredibly romantic piece of music as sensual for a harpist as climbing into a hot bath with a new lover?
By coreydargel - corey@automaticheartbreak.com
Phil,
Surely you don't expect me to explain a statement as simple as "Don't confuse stubbornness with ignorance. They are not the same thing," if all you have to say in response is "HUH?" Was that a joke? Oh, duh, I just got it! Good one!
Okay, now let's get slightly more serious. In an earlier post, you had explicitly put me in the "relativist camp," but that is inaccurate. I am not merely suggesting that we should find different ways of interpreting the historical narrative; I am instead suggesting that we call into question the very foundations of historical narratives and historical progress.
Suggesting that a rock band is the same as Beethoven is relativism--whether this constitutes a radical idea and useful for artists is up for debate. I hope its not just self justification.
This is a really poor and reductive evaluation of my argument.
Of course Beethoven and Radiohead are not the same! I never said that.
Perhaps I can clarify for you: I do not dismiss the intricacies of Beethoven's music and compare it to potato chips. I wouldn't tell a composer who wanted to study Beethoven that he or she should be studying Radiohead instead. But it seems certain people in this discussion would do the opposite. They would tell young composers to stop wasting their time with salty, vinegary Radiohead and learn their Beethoven, as if composers should rather be traditional music historians!The only justification for that point of view is to claim that Beethoven's music is better because it's part of the canon and Radiohead's is not. That thoughtless, lazy mindset is what I'm arguing against.
Listening to Bach in a church is not exactly a comprehensive way of experiencing Bach's music in its own time and place.
Again a change of subject-- first Mr. Dargel mentions social aspects, now he changes it to time and place.
Actually I mentioned time and place first. Here's what I wrote in my initial post:
"How could it surprise you that a young composer is not thoroughly inspired to listen to a piece of music from a time and place that he or she has no way of relating to?... it's not surprising that Bach's music... has no social or political immediacy for today's creative musicians."
It's seems as though maybe you and I are thinking of "social aspects" in different ways. Maybe you were suggesting that being in a church and listening to Bach's music provides a social community of fellow church-goers. That's very nice, of course, but a gathering of people in a church in which Bach's music is played does not result in the kind of "social and political immediacy" or "time and place" that I was referring to. But again, I'm not saying that people shouldn't listen to Bach's music. All I'm saying is that it doesn't have the same immediacy (for some composers) as other, more time- and place-appropriate musics.
You can nit-pick with the specifics of History all you want... but... history ain't what it used to be.
Since I never "claimed" the above again this has nothing to do with my post--again Mr. Dargel changes the subject to where he is most comfortable, so he can spout off about the "we" who are "changing" history.
Sorry, Phil, I wasn't responding only to your post. I was responding to a few different posts. Perhaps that's why you though I kept changing the subject: because I wasn't responding solely to your comments. At any rate, I can assure you that it really doesn't have anything to do with my comfort level. I'm sure I've pissed off enough people who serve on the occasional grant panel that I really can't be too concerned with my comfort level.
He did not answer my question:
The question I would ask both is the study of counterpoint as intellectual for a creative musician as the study of Foucault?
I did not answer your question because I thought it was kind of banal. But since you insist... First of all, I don't know how you would measure the degree to which something is "intellectual." And even if you could measure it, the question seems to suppose that knowledge is a means to end rather than a valuable thing in and of itself.
Foucault is so old school.
First of all, I hope I've never dismissed anything solely on the grounds that it is outdated or old-school. I believe I've always tried to explain my point of view in a substantive way. At any rate, I happen to think that Foucault's writings (as "old school" as they may be) are particularly relevant to this discussion. If my point of view seems old school to you, you're welcome to criticize it for that reason.
[ok this was a cheap remark-- I admit it--yet this invocation of Philosophy over musical content is quite old.]
Though I am flattered that he might claim me as a fore-bearer, I disagree that this is merely an inter-generational issue.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you mean "merely a generational issue," not "merely an inter-generational issue?" It is the original post-er, not me, who made this a generational issue. He did so in his very first sentence.
Thursday, December 20, 2007, 11:45:15 PM
it all boils down to this
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"..Surely you don't expect me to explain a statement as simple as "Don't confuse stubbornness with ignorance..."
I suppose it was wrong of me to expect you to explain yourself.
Phil
PS- you still didn't [not] answer my question.
Comments: -1 Edit
NMB reply Mark N. Grant continued
By: Philip Fried Date: Dec 20, 2007 - 05:17 PM
http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5365
Replying to Mr. Dargel is always problematic as he keeps changing the subject:
Ignorance Is Bliss
By coreydargel -
A few brief comments:
Don't confuse stubbornness with ignorance. They are not the same thing.
HUH?-I never said this!
It's not relativism; it's radicalism.
Suggesting that a rock band is the same as Beethoven is relativism--whether this constitutes a radical idea and useful for artists is up for debate. I hope its not just self justification.
Listening to Bach in a church is not exactly a comprehensive way of experiencing Bach's music in its own time and place.
Again a change of subject-- first Mr. Dargel mentions social aspects, now he changes it to time and place.
You can nit-pick with the specifics of History all you want. You can claim that certain kinds of music don't deserve to be a part of history. But then you buy into the imposed structures, and that's not a valid rebuttal to the claim that History itself is fatally flawed. You only see the evidence that the powers-that-be want you to see. The trick is to look at what's been excluded. There are rules for who gets to be in the History books, and only recently have we been able to subvert those rules with a modicum of democracy in the realm of information technology. It's only a start, but let's just say that history ain't what it used to be.
Since I never "claimed" the above again this has nothing to do with my post--again Mr. Dargel changes the subject to where he is most comfortable, so he can spout off about the "we" who are changing history. He did not answer my question:
The question I would ask both is the study of counterpoint as intellectual for a creative musician as the study of Foucault?
Though I am flattered that he might claim me as a fore-bearer, I disagree that this is merely an inter-generational issue. Foucault is so old school.
a final word pehaps!
we understand each other at last!
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"..You can nit-pick with the specifics of History all you want. .."
Why, yes! We both can!
Phil Fried
Comments: 0 Edit
ISIM
By: Philip Fried Date: Dec 17, 2007 - 05:44 PM
sorry folks I've been away to Chicago land at the ISIM convention--I have not quite sorted out my thoughts yet -but it will be a Rip Van Wrinkle kind of story when I do write it down. (I did my free jazz stuff from 1970-1975-then tried the composition world- but I'm easing my way back in -so to speak 30 years later)--so a little culture shock will be the order of the day.
Comments: 0 Edit
the thread continues NMB Mark reply
By: Philip Fried Date: Dec 11, 2007 - 06:48 PM
Corey lays out the opposition to Mark's post, my problem is 2 fold--I'm not sure that Mark isn't being disingenuous with his post and Corey and I do not agree here.
first a short side bar!
Dear Bermane:
It's amazing how much space can be filled with a cut and paste
Phil Fried--and I kept this one short!
OK Cory's reply to Mark;
The
By coreydargel - corey@automaticheartbreak.com
A well-read music scholar who believes in the illusory narrative of music history may very well be the worst candidate for a progressive creative musician in the 21st century.
One of the hallmarks of modernity (i.e. industrialism, technology, bureaucracy) is that there are ever-narrowing areas of expertise. Everyone's an expert on something. So let the music historians tell us how century-old music relates to the current day, and leave the composers to write fresh music for the 21st century.
How could it surprise you that a young composer is not thoroughly inspired to listen to a piece of music from a time and place that he or she has no way of relating to? It's not as if their teachers are knowledgeable (or capable) enough to submerge the students in the culture, art, and politics of the time when these "masterworks" were written, so it's not surprising that Bach's music, as lovely as it is in its absolute abstractness, has no social or political immediacy for today's creative musicians.
If you understand how music works, in an abstract sense, then you can get as much out of listening to Radiohead as you can out of listening to Beethoven. No one should be required to accept, much less embrace, the traditional trajectory imposed on the arbitrary and power-centric course of how music history has been chronicled. We need creative musicians who are not beholden to the intellectual shackles of historical "progress."
So stop being reactionary and stop administering scholarly aptitude litmus tests to creative musicians. So much has changed in the last fifty years that students have enough of a challenge digesting the music of the last twenty years, much less the last five-hundred years. And who are you, anyway, to say that the best understanding of music history starts with the distant past and not the recent past?
My reply to Corey
Masters of Illusions?
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
“ so it's not surprising that Bach's music, as lovely as it is in its absolute abstractness, has no social or political immediacy for today's creative musicians.
[unless they go to a church where Bach is played. ok I know]
I think we see here the conflict of two highly trained schools (Teams) of thought each one trying to exclude the other and trying very hard to prove their respective points.
In this corner Team “Tradition” represented or rather proposed by Mark-already quoted and questioned.
And in this corner Team “Relativist” represented by Corey.
“If you understand how music works, in an abstract sense, then you can get as much out of listening to Radiohead as you can out of listening to Beethoven. .”
Well perhaps maybe, if its just listening and not performing-- of course its possible I just don’t understand how music works.
There must be a middle ground here I think.
The question I would ask both is the study of counterpoint as intellectual for a creative musician as the study of Foucault?
Phil Fried
[No answer yet- but a sideways comment referring to history not counterpoint. I guess I don't get answers from anyone. Well folks though I respect the approach, it seems odd to me that a musician would not make music in all its aspects their life study. ]
How Ironic That We Find This Ironic!
By coreydargel - corey@automaticheartbreak.com
You would be wrong to assume that I don't know my music history in the traditional sense. But I think music history is wrapped up in the problematic (and IMPOSED) narrative of those in power (this is as true in academic and cultural matters as it is in political and social matters). I think none of us fully comprehends the way those in power shape history and so-called "historical narratives."
We can look at music history without having to conform to traditional means of interpreting it. One way of doing this is to look at what has been, and who have been, left out of music history, and a sensible way to do that is to start with the recent past and work backwards to the distant past.
By Colin Holter - cholter2@uiuc.edu
But there's a difference, Ryan, between history and the historical narrative. Mark's point–that we should be well-versed in history, in things that happened, music that was written, etc.–is right on, absolutely, but that's not the same thing as buying into a narrative, which after all is ultimately a product of ideology. Grout and Palisca offer you the history, of course, but it's selectively presented, designed to be construed as a narrative. The best example I can think of has to do with postwar music: "Serial music was big for a while, but then composers decided they wanted a more direct way to their audiences' hearts, so they went back to writing tonal music." This is a piece of ideology masquerading as a description of events, a narrative disguised as history. One benefit of knowing the history is that it gives us the capability to evaluate the narrative in a critical manner.
As for the other thing, I just don't have it in me to argue with you about Cage today.
By Colin Holter - cholter2@uiuc.edu
I see that Dargel and I wrote almost kind of the same thing at almost kind of the same time. In the distant future, historians will look back on this day in puzzlement.
history or mystery?
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
...the best example I can think of has to do with postwar music: "Serial music was big for a while, but then composers decided they wanted a more direct way to their audiences' hearts, so they went back to writing tonal music." This is a piece of ideology masquerading as a description of events, a narrative disguised as history.
Colin, I thought that this was a cover up! Fortunately, I did not get the memo.
Phil Fried
Comments: 0 Edit
reply Mark N. Grant again and Ms. X
By: Philip Fried Date: Dec 10, 2007 - 10:10 PM
Its seems that composer kids don't want to eat their wheaties!!
http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5365
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"...the late Donald Martino expressing outrage at his young composition students' insouciant, cavalier rejection of doing these classical things. .."
Well why would composers want to learn techniques that would make their music less viable in the current marketplace?
Complexity is out. Cool, (as you have mentioned those cool people before) and fashionable is in.
Many folks don’t realize that when they try to avoid influences they simple duplicate the work of others, who have already tried rejecting influences years ago. Or find themselves simply adhering to their “first” musical influences and prejudices.
On the other hand new musical pathways are opened through the intersections of old and new concepts and who can predict how this might happen? I can’t.
Just because I feel that compositional technique is the source of all musical advances does not mean that I think that all composers should be just like me. Or, just because they share my attitude does not mean that those would be the only composers that I would respect. That’s ridiculous too.
I think I'm sounding like a teacher?
Its unfortunate Andrew Imbrie is not alive today to weigh in on this topic. My condolences to all of his friends and family.
Phil Fried
Phil's Page
More---
?
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
Moreover, Lin is absolutely dead-on: For every young composer who values Berio over Berg, there are five who would rather listen to Les Noces than La Lontanaza Nostalgica Utopica Futura.
This is also very, very correct. Please notice that I did not comment on the alleged "...colleague of mine who teaches at a leading conservatory" hhhmmmm? sound a little funny to me --might we inquire for a name?
Phil Fried
Monday, December 10, 2007, 10:09:03 PM
________________________________________________________________
Composers must be paid ---reply to Ms. X
she says---------
By Lisa X - rdlkj@yahoo.com
Alex, You cant really compare composers with lawyers and other professions where there is a clear path to employment. Independent workers of all kinds are often in these difficult situations of balancing many factors when finding and choosing 'work' like gaining exposure, gaining experience, building working relationships, earning money, padding a resume, etc.
Mark is right to ask for more details and consider everything.
"As someone who is trying to make a living through music, I find it rather humiliating to accept this work: It makes me feel like an amateur."
Its important to consider this a real possibility. Like any other independent worker in a highly competitive and unstable field you have to be willing to accept the good times with the bad. If you are even considering working for free, times must be kinda tough. There are no simple formulas.
Respect your work and demand that you are treated fairly. But Alex's comment: "It's our right to be paid" is just garbage. The world cant afford to pay everyone who is composing any more than it can pay everyone in LA who is acting or every cook who opens a restaurant. Most restaurants close down. Keep cooking. Have a dinner party. Volunteer at the soup kitchen. Cater a friend's wedding. Open another restaurant. Teach a cooking class. Etc.
Sunday, December 09, 2007, 1:23:20 PM
my reply
cut rate composer operators are standing by..
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
...But Alex's comment: "It's our right to be paid" is just garbage The world cant afford to pay everyone who is composing any more than it can pay everyone in LA who is acting or every cook who opens a restaurant.. .."
" choosing 'work' like gaining exposure, gaining experience, building working relationships, earning money, padding a resume, etc. .."
Lisa I don't really understand your point here as an "In Kind payment" such as 12 live performances, is still a payment.
Also I don't understand your "acting" or "cooking" analogy. Though it is true that many actors and singers don't get paid, in fact they pay to get performances, yet on the professional level there is an expectation of payment for which most of these acting folks are working towards.
For example no one works on Broadway unless they are paid for it. The fact that most actors, or composers will never work there is a very different point.
Similarly your example of the cook who opens a restaurant as an investment doesn't seem to have much resonance either-- -unless its a one person operation or a co-operative no one works in food service unless they will get paid -not the wait staff not the bus boys and girls etc.
Charity work aside, I don't work for ice cream. I do however have partial day rates!
Phil Fried [I hope I didn't come off too harsh]
Monday, December 10, 2007, 9:11:18 PM
Comments: 0 Edit
NMB reply Mark N. Grant
By: Philip Fried Date: Dec 7, 2007 - 11:35 PM
Mark has been getting persnickety about folks not replying to his posts in a way that he would always like so I wrote the following:
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"...should have made clearer that when I referred to successful composers who sustain wholly separate, successful careers as artists in other forms, I meant well-known composers whose other art careers became as well known as their composing. ..."
Mark perhaps you should just let the blogging flow
and let the bloggers thoughts go where they might go
I know you don't like to be misinterpreted
or have your blogging space perverted-ed
You may find this to be irrelevant
but you can't control every element.
not every response will be true
but you will be understood by quite a few.
Respectfully, Phil Fried
Tuesday, December 04, 2007, 10:12:37 PM
I think that Mark forgets that most of the readers are newbies and don't quite have the personal history to relate directly to all his ideas. For example very early in a career it is not always possible to say who is the most important influence if you are still developing.
Comments: 0 Edit
NMB reply Kyle Gann
By: Philip Fried Date: Dec 7, 2007 - 11:26 PM
Mom
By Kyle Gann - kgann@earthlink.net
My mom has a master's in music ed. Once I came home from Oberlin and gave her a tape of music I'd had performed, and she later commented, with evident relief, "I'm so glad it's not 12-tone!"
Tuesday, December 04, 2007, 6:04:48 PM
uh-oh
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"My mom has a master's in music ed. Once I came home from Oberlin and gave her a tape of music I'd had performed, and she later commented, with evident relief, "I'm so glad it's not 12-tone!".."
Kyle--Moms against 12-tone?
Yikkes!!@!
Phil Fried
Wednesday, December 05, 2007, 10:13:02 AM
Comments: 0 Edit
NMB reply Yotam Haber 2 replyies
By: Philip Fried Date: Dec 7, 2007 - 11:23 PM
http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5357
Uh, no on this one
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"Do I accept this so-called commission, or do I turn it down in protest? Should I contact the performers and ask them if they, too, are "volunteering" their services?.."
Don't even bother to reply. If they then contact you ---name your price and if they quible say-- "if you pay peanuts you get monkeys!"
Stephen Paulus told me that one.
As for jew hating -sorry to say it turns up everywhere.
Phil Fried
Wednesday, December 05, 2007, 4:31:47 PM
__________________________________________________________________
lets mix it up some..
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"Somewhere, some internal wiring went awry that causes them to think that anything having to do with Art is in an entirely separate category from Real Life and that Artists don't deserve to ask for money to live..."
2 things:
Perhaps they think because they can't get money for their work-nobody else should.
Or they have plenty of money from other sources and music is their, well, not their main profession. As their money gives them an advantage they then discount the needs of professionals who are merely "workers."
On the other hand are the composers who make the most money the best composers?
Phil Fried
Comments: 0 Edit
NMB-in hot water again !
By: Philip Fried Date: Dec 4, 2007 - 07:34 PM
I seem to get into trouble all the time. This time its with SC who takes offense--well you'll see! () refers to misprints
first check this:
http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5356
OK--
you said a hand-full
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
I might add that the piano has many guises and attitudes; as a solo instrument by itself, as solo instrument with accompaniment, as in a piano concerto, or as an accompanying instrument for singers and instruments.
Or as an equal or unequal partner in Chamber music.
[the below refers to a composer--not a performer I thought it was clear!]
As an accompanying instrument the piano must be adjusted to the range and sound aspects of the instrument accompanied. How many times have balance issues occurred because the piano accompaniments cover the soloist’s registers or offers too much support?
There’s more to piano orchestration than just filling up the hands.
Phil Fried
Phil's Page
another memo missed
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"..yet when you compare it to Liszt, you can see readily that Brahms's piano writing is more cumbersome and awkward for the pianist..."
I'm not sure that everyone agrees with this. I know I don't.
Phil
[SC's reply]
chamber music
By sarahcahill - scahill@aol.com
I agree with Teresa about Brahms and Liszt at the piano. However virtuosic Liszt's music is, it's meant to fit well in the hand, while that wasn't a main consideration for Brahms, I think. As for the word "accompanist," I'm sure I'm not the only pianist who bristles at that term (Teresa, how about you?). It's often used to describe a relationship in which the pianist has as least a hefty role as the instrumentalist or singer (there's a reason why Beethoven wrote Sonatas for Piano and Cello, rather than Sonatas for Cello and Piano). Just this morning, I met with a French horn player who said that Robert Helps had once been his accompanist. "You mean he was your duo partner," I corrected him. Robert Helps would never overpower a singer or instrumentalist, but he was also one of the most extraordinary pianists of any era, and no mere "accompanist."
say what?
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
I met with a French horn player who said that Robert Helps had once been his accompanist. "You mean he was your duo partner," I corrected him.
Luck(y) the person who works with Robert Phelps. I think you missed my point that that may be the theory but then again, not always.
2 things:
1)Performers--Not all professional musicians are good at sharing the performance spotlight no matter what instrument they play. Many famous soloists have been known not to be good at chamber music.
2)Compositional-my main point -I have heard compositions that though technically "duets" leave one of the instruments out to dry. One instrument is primary the other is not. This has nothing to do with the collaborative abilities of the players involved merely a compositional fact. Why deny it?
I don't really understand your dislike of the term "accompanist" as there are ma(n)y fine universities that offer degrees in accompanying.
Some of my best friends are accompanists!
Phil Fried
Tuesday, December 04, 2007, 4:47:24 PM
Lucky...
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"Lucky" the person who works with Robert Phelps. I think you missed my point that that may be the theory but then again, not always.
When I wrote about "accompaniment" it is simply a neutral term like melody, or bass - the building blocks of many compositions. I hope you don't have your theory students study; melody, harmony, and "duo partners". LOL!
I was not using "accompaniment" in the"performance" sense at all.
Anyway I find it interesting that the piano can encapsulate so many different "persona."
[Colin squares it out for us-I intended no disrespect to pianists, I did think that as NMB is a composers page we might talk about the compositional aspects of composing for instruments.]
oppsey
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"To my knowledge, the accepted alternative to "accompanist" is "collaborative pianist"–..."
A thousand pardons, I am sooo out of the loop!
Phil Fried
Comments: 0 Edit
NMB--what music is good for thanksgiving?
By: Philip Fried Date: Dec 1, 2007 - 10:33 PM
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
You could try Bacharach’s “Turkey Lurkey Time” but on close examination it’s an Xmas song. If one feels at one with the Turkey, there are several beheading scenes in opera that just might do; Electra and Dialogue of the Carmelites. My Wife Janet suggested these.
I am myself; please forgive the shameless self-promotion, too busy working on my solo performance for the ISIM to casual listen at this time.
On the other hand, as you can see, perhaps there are some Turkeys one just can’t avoid. [a referance to the content of some of the other posts]
Phil Fried
Wednesday, November 28, 2007, 10:59:40 AM
Comments: 0 Edit
ISIM convention and NMB
By: Philip Fried Date: Nov 26, 2007 - 04:40 PM
I'm on my way to the ISIM convention, I hope to see some of you there. I have been out of the Improv scene for about 20 years but I am now back performing for the last 5 years with some success. So I wonder how my approach will be accepted.
Here is another NMB response, very related to my subject, in this case Ryan takes as his point of reference George Lewis against John Cage. So I wonder what the thought streams will be and if I will be confluent.
I disagree- Ryan’s position is quite clear—that the acceptance of any “Universalism” either Cageian or Communist, or anyone else’s that denies the past would be cultural suicide. As quoted:
“ the African-American improviser, coming from a legacy of slavery and oppression, cannot countenance the erasure of history. (Lewis, 233)” …”
I believe that the words “never forget” are familiar to some of us.
My problem with Ryan’s postings is that he does not stress this important main point, but rather tends to “bate” folks, who perhaps see the world differently, and to nibble around the edges arguing minutia. Besides temporarily changing his position when challenged. Phil Fried --[Ryan also offers prolix advise and opinions on topics with which he has only the most rudimentary experience.]
We will see!
Comments: 0 Edit
NMB reply Frank Oteri
By: Philip Fried Date: Nov 14, 2007 - 10:37 AM
“In the final analysis, it's a question of scale…”
Frank I also think that it’s a question of “time”. As, the musical trends that affect us change so do the challenges we have as composers and audiences. The trends on TV have changed. Now “reality” shows muscle out the “situation comedies” and who remembers the variety shows?
Time is also an issue in that many composers are in a hurry to make their mark and make it now! How many of us have or had particular timelines in our heads?
As for it being “impossible to win” it’s a good mindset to feel bullet proof but I’m not so sure that will work for everyone. Any art, or in any sport for that matter, involve loss and risk. How we cope with that loss and success tells us everythingsays a lot about us.
Comments: 0 Edit
composers and the free market NMB
By: Philip Fried Date: Nov 9, 2007 - 11:49 PM
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
“Why do we Americans try to succeed on the free market?”
Two things:
1) Many composers don’t.
2) Since we live in a capitalist country we are obliged to compete in it if we want to or not. Actually are markets are not really free.
Of the composers who do try, there are;
The composers who are simpatico with the public, everyone wins.
The composers who try to pander to the public- this doesn’t work.
The composers who work a particular “niche”, most of us I think.
The composers who are chosen by the gatekeepers - not always for what they do-but for what they don’t do.
Phil Fried
__________________________________________________________________
Ok when you blog you have to deal many different people some are here only to pull your chain! Here is one such exchange: I ask a simple question --well lets see!
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
I think I would like to hear from the performers on this subject--how do they work their commissions?
Madame--how about a real name, and the publishers you work for? What do they pay composers?
Phil Fried
Thursday, November 08, 2007, 3:07:44 PM
By rtanaka -ryant@ryangtanaka.com
Performers usually make money through teaching and gigging for the most part. If you play one gig and do an OK job then word gets around and they might call you for another. If you can manage to get a decent reputation among a number of people, then it's possible to string enough of them together and make a pretty decent living.
Performers don't have the luxury to be too picky, so they go where the money goes. But if going the commercial route isn't acceptable, one great way to make a living is to play for weddings or parties for rich people. Hey, and if they like you, maybe they'll call you back over and over, and you can be their "court musician". Have things changed all that much, really?
Thursday, November 08, 2007, 3:51:10 PM
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
"...Performers usually make money..."
Ryan...I did not ask how performers make money,I think that many of us know that. I asked if they (performers) would share how they commission composers--anyway that's what I thought I did!
Phil Fried
A wife with no name-do I feel a song coming on?
Thursday, November 08, 2007, 4:53:02 PM
By rtanaka -ryant@ryangtanaka.com
Oh, sorry. I misread your post.
Why do performers commission works? Umm, isn't it because they like so-and-so's music?
If you want to look at it more cynically, reputation is something that also plays a big factor. Being able to say that you premiered a work by a well-known composer looks very good in your bio, and I've known some people who went this route and seems to have capitalized on it pretty well. Hopefully the music will still be good.
If you have no real reputation (like the rest of us) then you'll have to write something that someone might actually want to play. That's why it helps to be in dialogue with performers all the time if you want more performances of your work. There's no guarantee that it'll be worth your time in terms of $$$, but if the composer is on the same page as the performer, then they'll probably gladly perform your stuff. Common sense, I think?
Thursday, November 08, 2007, 4:58:48 PM
He said He said..
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
I..."asked if they (performers) would share how they commission composers--anyway that's what I thought I did!..."
"Oh, sorry. I misread your post. Why do performers commission works?"
Nope--we are not on the same page yet Ryan.
I said How and you said Why and now you've gone and made me cry!
Phil Fried
Thursday, November 08, 2007, 5:50:19 PM
By rtanaka -ryant@ryangtanaka.com
Um, the procedure itself isn't too complicated...
Performer: I need a piece by (date).
Composer: OK
Piece is handed to the performer by (date), although sometimes. Sometimes the composer is given a check for their efforts. What more is there to know?
Thursday, November 08, 2007, 6:32:22 PM
By rtanaka -ryant@ryangtanaka.com
Meant to say above that sometimes composers can be pretty delinquent in meeting deadlines. Even fairly reputable ones have been known to skimp out or ask extensions.
Most it just boils down to the idea that a if bunch of people like your stuff, they will play it. The rest are just variables based on reputation and amount of funding each organization might have.
Thursday, November 08, 2007, 6:38:20 PM
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
Its gotten very quiet again-is Ryan the only performer who is willing to tell us how much they pay a composer to write music for them? well actually Ryan didn't tell anything us he only speculated about others. One last time
Ryan-have "you" [ever] commissioned a musical work--yes or no
If yes--did you pay the composer?
Phil Fried
Oh it occurs to me that a composers ability to manage their money is a factor in their financial health, as would be the "in kind" non-cash payments that a composer working in a dictatorship.
Thursday, November 08, 2007, 8:11:24 PM
hmmmm
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
"..composers can be pretty delinquent in meeting deadlines. Even fairly reputable ones have been known to skimp out or ask extensions..."
Composers--such bad people.
It seems that you don't like composers very much Ryan. Oh dear. Well, I will have to keep that in mind from now on.
Phil Fried
Thursday, November 08, 2007, 8:56:11 PM
By rtanaka -ryant@ryangtanaka.com
Hey now, I'm just saying things that actually happen in real life. Most composers meet deadlines, some don't. Sometimes things happen, and it's not the composer's fault. Sometimes it is.
I've been commissioned a few of times and the process is always the same. Someone asks me to write a piece, then I say yes or no depending. Sometimes there is a due date, sometimes not. I've gotten like 20 bucks, a dinner, but most of the time I've gotten nothing because it's always just been amongst friends.
I'm really not sure what kind of answer you're looking for -- I always thought the process itself was pretty straightforward...what could there possibly be more to it than that?
Thursday, November 08, 2007, 10:16:54 PM
every? ever--yikkes
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
-have "you" every commissioned a musical work--yes or no
-have "you" "ever" commissioned a musical work--yes or no
It seems that you have not.
its late and I been orchestrating too long
anyone else?
Phil Fried
Then no reply
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MN Orchestra reading sessions NMB addenda
By: Philip Fried Date: Nov 8, 2007 - 12:32 PM
http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5312
Ok-- Colin Holter thought that the composers represented this year were not very international in style--very "conservative" in fact.
The blog went into the pros and cons and quite a few misunderstanding about "experimental" or "innovative" music. Every few years the "lingo" changes so this can happen.
Anyway here are my posts:
old or new a few thoughts too..
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com I'm interested in "quality" music sure, but for me that's about "form"-- "style" is a secondary consideration. I think we must look beneath the surface. Huh?
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"...serialism is passe, as colin mentioned..."
I guess I didn't get the memo!
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"However, it is simply a fact that this is not the orchestra audience. That is not what the audience of symphony orchestra's is interested in. ..." Sorry I didn't get this memo either.
Phil Fried
another memo missed
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"Two things we're always seeking in our work, are to be original and relevant..." This doesn't ring any bells. or dog whistles!--
[Note a flamer named "somebody" has been complaining and modern music and unfair competitions--thus example dog whistles.]
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
I see a lot of speculations here about the MN reading program and a lot of "what ifs.." I encourage you all to apply.
It is possible that some of you have applied and been turned down for a reading or have not even applied because you think there are unstated rules.
I too have been turned down-in fact twice before my work was accepted. In my experience The MN Orchestra reading sessions are far more open style-wise to "experimental music" or any kind of music than many a "new music " group.
So many of these so called "new music groups" are private parties that have a bad habit of excluding particular styles or musical "Teams". I have mentioned this before. Phil Fried
[as folks ignore my offer I get silly]
sorry in advance! By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"some time ago, a colleague sitting next to me said,..."
Didn't you mean a "Collie" sitting next to me? Or perhaps a "Pug." You know that new music is go'in to the dawgs! I think I'd better go wet my whistle!
Phil Fried
Phil By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com [Alex gets mad at somebody]
Alex--cut it out! Remember your nobody till somebody loves you. Phil another fix
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
Never write for orchestra, unless they Neo-Romantic
Never write a blog unless it’s pedantic
Never mention music from across the Atlantic
Never have opinions unless they tyranic
When referring to the experimental
Only mention things tangential.
And remember never to define your terms
Because too much agreement makes us squirm.
Experimental and innovative can in no possible way be related In fact would it be such a bereavement
If we were all really in agreement?
y i rhyme [pgblu-askes why?] By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
I believe that this is a free and open forum. At least I don't talk about my sumptuous dinners with important friends.
[madame.. chimes in and stirs things up!]
Her post:
Dear Somebody By madamecynthia - mdmecynthia@yahoo.com
have you ever thought that maybe you have a completly overblown perception of your work? Maybe that is the reason why no orchestra wants to play it. After all there are so many anonymous competitions in the world-if you never get anywhere with your music-the most obvious conclusion is no-one finds merit in it. And back to the theme of new and old- the upsurge of European composition teachers ( Ferneyhough, Murail, Levy, Anderson, Tutschku, Czernowin just to name a few) shows that the intelectional rigour of composition seems mainly to come from the other side of the Atlantic.
another memo missed By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"..the intelectional rigour of composition seems mainly to come from the other side of the Atlantic..." No, I did not get this memo, nor do I think did Milton Babbitt,Elliot Carter, George Perle, etc etc. etc. etc.etc etc. etc. etc. Phil Fried
Oh--that By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
..Or would you care to contemplate why so many top-teaching positions are given european composers? I have! Probably for the same reason that American composers hold so few "top-teaching positions" positions in Europe and Canada.
Phil Fried
ok lets look again By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com "
..the intelectional rigour of composition seems mainly to come from the other side of the Atlantic..."
Ok "SEEMS" --this is would be a question of the different musical trends in Europe and America--If you are saying that there is an anti-intellectual trend in the US I agree.
I mentioned names that one might recognise and there are many others. Yet unlike Europe--how would you get know them?
Maybe here!!!!
Phil Fried
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------http://newmusicbox.org/chatter/chatter.nmbx?id=5317
My reply to the above on NMB
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com Mark,
I a little disappointed in your blog post.
At first you get our hopes up with some interesting information about composers financial lives, only to revert to the same old stereotypes and half truths so common today:
Schoenberg --Bad-- and a liar to boot! Uh-uh?
Cage good-- because poor people love him? Sure thing fella.
Carter- rich!!! uptown snobs only! --please!
I object to you giving information about some composers than speculating and inferring about others. Perhaps those are the composers who don't fit into your tidy thesis.
[after the very long explaination , and not from Mr. Grant--I reply]
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
As you point out that you were merely repeating the comments of “someone else” and any number of folks might have said the same thing.
I will quote Emily Littella—“never mind.”
But Please consider this;
“…In America we speak routinely now of race, ethnicity, disability, gender, and sexuality, but class is still taboo—“
“Position” is also a component of “class.” As in; who is in a “position” to be “our” spokespeople and whether or not we can accept the “spin” they chose to give our artistic lives.
Phil Fried
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NMB addenda
By: Philip Fried Date: Nov 3, 2007 - 12:09 PM
Recently on NMB Frank Oteri asked folks to name their favorite living composers. Surprisingly very few took up the offer and those few that did were the same few composers from sequenza21 who always praise each others music. “Log rolling” as Spy magazine used to call it. Mr. Brown got quite defensive and then aggressive about defending that web site and I suppose the composers within—oh I'm one of them but I don't blog there:
As always..
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
"I think we end up being a reflection of the state of the broader industry -- our coverage of music by women and minorities is too small because they're underrepresented in the industry as a whole, and we cover the stuff we know about. "
The problem is always someone else!
Phil Fried
His reply:
By GalenHBrown - galen@galenbrown.com
Well, sure Phil, but I'm not saying we don't have a problem. I agree that it would be great if S21 were more successful at representing women and minorities. My point is that it's not "Sequenza21 has a problem" as I sometimes hear, but that the industry has a problem and in spite of our best efforts we're not combatting that problem as effectively as we would like to be. People also sometimes complain that S21 is too New York or East Coast centric, and it's true. I don't know why more non-New Yorkers don't join up and help improve the situation, and I'd love it if in addition to the "Last Night in LA" feature we had "Last Night in Peoria" and "Last Night in Oshkosh." The thing is, though, that if you think the New York Times or the Boston Globe underrepresents women, minorities, non-eastcoasters, or whomever, all you can really do is write a letter to the editor and hope they listen. With Sequenza21 and with blogging in general you can actually do something to fix it. I'm not saying put up or shut up, but it would be nice if our critics would at least attribute our shortcomings to their actual causes rather than assuming that we're acting in bad faith.
Wednesday, October 17, 2007, 2:20:19 PM
My feelings about his reply which reflects our industry in general.
soapbox alert!
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
Galen, I think this attitude is why composers are considered so irrelevant in America. We expect everything and we owe nothing.
Phil Fried
Wednesday, October 17, 2007, 6:14:31 PM
Now his more aggressive reply
By GalenHBrown - galen@galenbrown.com
Sorry, Phil, who exactly is "expecting everything and owing nothing?" I'm expecting people to try to be reasonable and fair. Is that so far out of line? And as I've said many different ways in this discussion I AGREE that Sequenza21 has a responsibility to be inclusive and to try to overcome the problems in the industry, and that we aren't as successful as we'd like to be. So we have a responsibility to keep trying to do a better job. Which we're doing. And we have a responsibility to listen to our critics--it's helpful to have feedback on how well or poorly we're doing at inclusivity and fair representation--and I'm finding parts of this discussion very helpful. But only the parts that are reasonable and fair.
My final point
"We composers." That would be "us" I think.
Wasn't it clear?
__________________________________________________________
My problem with sequenza21, is that it is a commercial site that supports the status quo and it makes up separate rules for those they like and those that they don't . For example; corporate support is denigrated selectively-- overlooking the cigarette and liquor money that keeps (or kept) the BAM afloat.
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Mercy on Broadway
By: Philip Fried Date: Oct 13, 2007 - 01:44 PM
As I watched the previews of of a recent Broadway musical "...Blond..."on VH1 I realize that this work has much more in common with silent movies than with musicals of days past. That is it was created for the bulk of the today's Broadway audience-- those foreign tourists who don't happen to speak English. So, it must look good, have big simple gesture acting, and the music must sound familiar. It helps if the audience already sort of knows the story--from the original talking (dubbed or subtitled)-movie.
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who are you NMB reply
By: Philip Fried Date: Oct 13, 2007 - 01:33 PM
Frank, you have a mission statement don't you? Then decide who you "want" to be associated with- then figure out who you "have" to be associated with. And whatever you do don't forget;
those backslapp'in frat boys Out every night
they know that they are their own hearts delight
those backslapp'in frat boys
scrap’ in for a fight
they know they can't lose because they’re always right
those backslapp'in frat boys
It’s such a mystery
why they must insist on telling us their extremely detailed and idiosyncratic personal view of history?
those backslapp'in frat boys
I wish they were mild
tune into another segment of alpha males gone wild.
those backslapp'in frat boys
they have a ball!
because they know you "can" fight city hall!
those backslapp'in frat boys
there is never to few!
sorry to say it
I guess I'm one too!
I apologize in advance to all!
Phil's page
Thursday, October 11, 2007, 12:51:51 PM
I apologize to myself!
a
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nmb replies Ives
By: Philip Fried Date: Oct 8, 2007 - 05:01 PM
Did Ives backdate his music to see, more "modern"?
I Apologize in advance to that "old black magic"
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
That old Carter transgression
that I know so well
That old Carter transgression
that we retell and retell
those Ives'y score that get backdated too
He did so many -yet he didn't do
That old Carter transgression
How could we know?
That old Carter transgression
can someone show?
So, round and round I go, through the internet I know.
looking for proof, the proof that is the truth
about that old Carter transgression
maybe today!
Thursday, October 04, 2007, 3:16:52 PM
also-----
I never believed that stuff about Ives, it always seemed that those who said it had some kind of agenda - and not hidden!
Phil Fried
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the new music scene more NMB replies
By: Philip Fried Date: Oct 8, 2007 - 04:58 PM
the best of all possible worlds
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
It seems that there is a call in our industry for "fair play." I'm all for it. The problem is this; self interest and interconnection. Any attempt to "police" the new music scene would simply impose another set of self interests and interconnections- no better, no worse, and probably no different either.
One can note the lack of vision of the gate keepers. They must do more for new composers-- but we forget just how little power these folks actually have. They too must respond to the market place. There was a saying; "No one was ever fired for hiring IBM." It follows that gate keepers keep this in mind. This is how composers become a brand and get performed again and again.
As too whether the new music scene is "the best of all possible worlds." Hardly. Classical music has over its history shows a peculiar way of masking its great composers from sight, while dwelling on the musicians of the moment.
I suppose it is no comfort to any of us that all composers from top to bottom of the success ladder, with a very few exceptions, feel that they have been denied something that they deserved. Sometimes the game is rigged, sometimes not--but the answer is to just keep playing. For example; there is a performance organization that is very up front that no 12-tone composers should apply - so how many organizations are exactly the same way but don't tell you? They just send the rejection letter.
For myself I say this; I am glad I live in the USA where I can still be a composer without being "official" or part of an institution, academic of otherwise. I can still get performed, and I can still compete for grants and awards and I can still win some and lose some.
Phil's page
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composing out
By: Philip Fried Date: Sep 29, 2007 - 09:38 PM
After 10 years I just finished work on my Opera: The Snows of Kilimanjaro.
The strange thing for me was the experience of composing my way out of the work, after composing myself into it for so long. The last 300 measures just flowed out yet the sense of conclusion after so long was so powerful to me that I almost did not want it to end. Has anyone else had this experience?
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another rhyme response to colin
By: Philip Fried Date: Sep 29, 2007 - 09:33 PM
By Colin Holter - cholter2@uiuc.edu
In response to Grant's response to "In response to Grant:" I understand that you consider this particular unnamed piece emblematic of a widespread problem in contemporary music. However, I don't live in New York, I don't have access to a library of recent concert programs, and I am not interested in batting around (ha!) baseball metaphors, Adorno quotes, and broad generalizations unless we can look at a score together and be absolutely certain that we are discussing the same phenomena. Even if the piece you heard sucked, and indeed it may have, your effigy of a "baby boomer or Gen-Alphabetter" hack who can't harmonize a chorale is an indictment–not only unconvincing but also grossly unfair–of several generations of American composers, and although I've met a few who meet your description, it's a blanket statement that doesn't hold water. I just won't stand for it. I am excusing myself from further debate until you or somebody else presents some genuine data.
Saturday, September 29, 2007,
By philmusic - philmusic@aol.com
In response to Grant's response to "In response to Grant:"
one must learn to tell the difference between a blog and a silly rant.
In response to Grant's response to "In response to Grant:"
one must know what one can comment on and what one can't.
In response to Grant's response to "In response to Grant:"
if we do not know the work how can we sing or chant?
In response to Grant's response to "In response to Grant:"
There is no "good" or "bad"-- no reason to be sad
In response to Grant's response to "In response to Grant:"
Phil Fried
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more NMB stuff
By: Philip Fried Date: Sep 28, 2007 - 03:01 PM
Why I love theorists:
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
Here a Theorist, There a Theorist
With them there’s know doubt
When you have a theorist You know what your about
With a Theorist, and a Theorist
It is always Spring
When you know a theorist You always want to sing
Put a Bennie on your Urlinie
A figured bass, will always know its place,
not in outer space!
Here a Theorist, There a Theorist
What is there to say?
When you have a theorist You always find the way!
Here a Theorist, There a Theorist
With them there’s know doubt
When you have a theorist
You know what your about You know what your about!
sometime I just gatta rhyme all rights (and wrongs) reserved by Phil Fried 2007
________________________________________________________________
Ryan quotes this article to object to the avante-garde's claims of universalism:
here http://quasar.lib.uoguelph.ca/index.php/csieci/article/view/6/14
lets talk politics then
By philmusic -philmusic@aol.com
I'm not so sure that Mr. Lewis's objections are so much to universality--but rather to the theft and appropriation of culture and musical style, and history and the power that can be achieved over the originators by such theft. I've heard such works myself. I think we are talking about authenticity here. On the other hand it seems reasonable that people working independently and from different musical backgrounds can come up with very similar results. Whether these results are in conflict or in confluence is a political question.
I think this get us back to our Kenny G. rants.
Phil Fried
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